Speakers: Nichole Pitts (Host) and Shani Gonzales (Guest, MD of Warner Chappell UK & Head of International A&R)

 

Nichole Pitts

Welcome to The Ethintegrity Podcast, Shani. I’m so excited to have you here.

Shani Gonzales
I’m so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
Nichole
We are talking all things, music and DEI and ethics. I think the first time we met…
Shani
Mm-hmm
Nichole
which was
Shani
Gold restaurant in Notting Hill.
Nichole
Yes. Yes. I couldn’t remember the name of the restaurant, but you were talking about growing up in New York as the child of two West Indian parents, I think Jamaica and Trinidad?
Shani
Uhhuh
Nichole
And you were like when you would go to Jamaica or Trinidad for the summer and you were like, not everybody has two passports and I was like, what are you talking about?
Shani
Well, I think it was one, I think it was like, you know, my family I’m first generation American. So I grew up having a passport before I can remember and traveling. It was a big part of the culture or a big part of making sure that your children understood. Children being me at the time and probably still now, but like understood the culture and kept it going. I came from West Indian people who were living in America, but not always of America.

I know that that was important for both of my parents to pass on. So I remember going to college and being like, I think it was maybe the freshman year we wanted to go somewhere for Spring Break and everybody didn’t have a passport. I was so confused. I was like, wait, you don’t have what? Huh? Like, how did you go see your grandparents in the summertime?

Nichole
And they were like, we got in the car and drove south.
Shani
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it was like growing up in New York. All of my friends were first-generation Americans. Children of crazy immigrant parents. And I say crazy in like the best way. So in the summers, everybody was going somewhere, Guyana you know, Jamaica, Trinidad, Grenada. We were just talking about Barbados, wherever. Yeah. So yeah, it felt very normal.
Nichole
I could see that. I mean, I was like, that seems so foreign to me just because I’m from the States and that’s where all of my family was. So for us, it was going down to Georgia to visit our grandparents.
Shani
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. For me, it was on a plane. Yeah. Like begging my parents, do I have to go?
Nichole
What was really interesting though, was when you were talking about the difference in visiting your family in Jamaica, versus the difference of when you were visiting your family in Trinidad.
Shani
Mm-hmm well, it’s funny cuz my mother. My mother came to America a bit earlier than my father. She immigrated from Jamaica with her parents, maybe when she was in high school.

So like teenage, maybe 16 or so. And her family, my grandparents were in America. They were very Jamaican, but they were in America. They were in New York. And my father came to America from Trinidad when he was in his twenties and all of his family with the exception of his sister that was in New York, was in Trinidad.

So my grandparents were there and my father was like, very, you know, I always say, if you’re familiar with Jamaicans and Trinidadians, they’re the two most problematic islands, cuz they both think they’re the best. So when you have one parent who’s Jamaican and one parent who’s Trinidadian, the two most dominant islands, in my opinion, they’re both so prideful on another level.

My father was always like, okay, you can’t be too Jamaican you’re with them all the time so we’re going to Trinidad. It’s funny because, for both places to be, there’s such a shared culture, I think in the Caribbean, but also very distinct differences. I would go to Trinidad and call fruit by a different name than what they called it in Trinidad.

I would call it the Jamaican name and that was a thing. I spoke very different languages to both parents, even though it was all English but just different. They were just so different. Yeah. And therefore divorce anyway, but you know, like it’s probably why. But, you know.

Nichole
It’s almost like code-switching in a way, as far as understanding that culture and then was getting into it. One of the things I’d seen recently there was this whole big discussion on Instagram with Amanda Seales. And she’s a first generation as well as she was talking to her mother about the Queen (Elizabeth) dying and she slipped into a Grenadian accent and people were like, well, what’s going on here? And some people are like, well, It’s this just you being performative, but other people, especially, children that are first generation from West Indian parents say that you slip into that because you communicate like that with your family.
Shani
Absolutely. There were so many times that I would be saying things that were not, we always laugh about this now, me and my cousins, my little brothers, like just the weirdo things that we said at home. And then it always took that moment of taking it back to school and then getting laughed at. It was when I went away to university and then I started realizing, oh, so you guys don’t all just call it a veranda? Like it’s like, you know, just crazy things that you would say, like, my grandmother used to have this thing about calling my mother “she”, so I couldn’t be speaking to my grandmother on the Jamaican side and go, “well, she said that I need to do.” And she’d say “Who is she? Damn rude.” I’m like, so I can’t use pronouns around you, Grandma. Like I don’t get it. And now my niece and I were talking and she said to me, and she’s my Goddaughter actually.

And she said something about “she” and I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We don’t say she when you’re talking about your mother talking about your mother and she was just as confused as I was, but you find yourself, you find yourself repeating the sins that have been done to you. Obviously, I’m making a joke by saying sins, but you know, just the crazy things.

Nichole
So you just had to say your mom’s name?
Shani
Yeah, I would say. “Mom said that I’m not allowed to do”. It was just like considered rude as a kid to like, I don’t really know. Unfortunately, my grandmother’s passed away. That would one of the questions I would go. So why was that rude, grandma? Like, you know, I adored her though.

So if she told me to do something, I was gonna do it. Yeah. I meant if grandma told me to do something, then I was gonna, I can’t say she, if grandma told me to do something, then I was gonna do it. Grandma said yes, better.

Nichole
And now you’re passing that right on down.
Shani
Absolutely. Like I would have to explain to guys, don’t call my house and just say, hi, may I speak to Shani?

You have to be like, hello, good evening, Mr. Gonzalez how are you? Perhaps is Shani available for a chat? Like I know I’m being a bit facetious, but what teenage boy wants to like go into all of that with your family before you’re allowed to come to the phone? Cause if you said. “Hi is Shani home?” Shani don’t pay no bills in this house. Dad, but like, is that necessary like, ah, you know, as a teenager. Whatever but I look forward to having kids and doing the same exact stuff.

Nichole
I can just imagine. I’m looking forward to that for you.
Shani
I don’t wanna, I am going to be, I don’t wanna be a normal parent. I don’t. I wanna bring the smoke.
Nichole
Then I’m gonna have to be like TeeTee Nichole will help you.
Shani
Yes. I mean, listen, I had friends who were allowed to call adults by their first name. Everybody was an auntie or an uncle like you never called an adult by their first name. Absolutely not.
Nichole
In some ways, it seems very West Indian because in the south it’s gonna be Miss or Mister or something like that. But the auntie and uncle, I just noticed that it was more of my West Indian friends that would do that. And I said, okay, that must be a cultural thing.
Shani
It comes from like the most extreme kinds of respect, I guess. And I’m so used to doing it. Now, if I have a friend whose child calls me Shani, I’m like, oh, oh my. And I know it’s totally normal. I don’t have an issue, but it’s just, so different then how I was raised.
Nichole
Yeah. It hits you a little bit differently.
Shani
Yeah, absolutely.
Nichole
You know, I was watching Top Boy is where I learned some of the Jamaican slang we like wagwan. And I was like, what does that mean? Cause everybody was saying it to each other. And I said I’m really coming up on some culture.
Shani
Yeah. The UK will do that to you in a much different way than America will. I mean, I was saying like there’s a new prime minister here (in the UK).

And I was talking to somebody and I was like Liz Truss? And they were like, no, no, no. Her name is Liz Trust Me Daddy. And I was like, and I was saying that to my mother and my mother was like, is, is she, is she Jamaican? And I’m. No, she’s not Jamaican. And the person who said it is not Jamaican, it’s just like she couldn’t wrap her brain, like, it just sounds so.

Yeah, it’s just how the UK it’s a big melting pot in a much different, in a much more real way, I think than even growing up in New York.

Nichole
Yeah. What do you think is the difference between New York and the UK?
Shani
Oh, I think, you know, the American culture is all about immigrants. Listen, things have changed and it’s gotten really problematic in America and I fully acknowledge that and am disgusted by it. But the American tradition had previously been a lot about immigration and coming to America and being American. It would be really insensitive, incorrect, and not something that most people would say, maybe that a person who immigrated from China who maybe had children that were born in America, you would call them American.

Whereas in the UK, I’ve learned in my short time here is if you are Nigerian three generations back, you will always be Nigerian. You will never quite be English or British. I don’t, I’m probably, I’m speaking totally off of experience.

But I’ll meet people who will say to me, I’m Jamaican and I’ll go, okay. But then I realize they’ve never been to Jamaica. They’re not totally aware of the culture. But their grandparents were Jamaican and therefore they still are, whereas in America it’s been diluted enough that you’re now American. Do you understand?

Nichole
Yeah, because you don’t have that tie back to where you can say, this is where I’m from. Exactly. I think that’s exactly the ancestry DNA results are so popular. So you can be like, I’m 36% Nigerian. Yeah. Nigerian, you know, we’re so diluted. And that was a question I got a lot in my time abroad was where are you from?

And I’d say “I’m American.” And they’re like, but no, where exactly? Like which country? Are you Nigerian? Are you Ghanaian? And I was like, I’m American. And then I’d have to explain miscegenation.

Shani
Exactly. Cause I was like is this a conversation for broad daylight? Let’s be honest.
Nichole
I can’t go back to my great, great grandparent and say these people were from this particular tribe in this country. I always love to hear the stories as far as people that do have that connection with their Homeland mm-hmm cause I feel like that’s something I know I feel like I miss is that I would love to be able to tie it back to some of those traditions and being able to say, oh, well this word means this thing or this is where my roots are from versus well, 36% Nigerian and 15% English, 5% Scottish. You know?
Shani
Yeah, no, I feel incredibly lucky. Like I tease both of my parents a lot, know, I feel incredibly lucky to have had that experience. I am American and I was born in America, but I feel like I have this insane amount of pride for my Trini side and for the Jamaican side.

I also feel it’s a weird thing cuz I’m also like, oh if I have kids, they’ll be second generation. Ugh. It’s something that I hope that if I have kids one day that they’ll get to share in that. And for a long time growing up in New York, I never even considered the idea that I could have a husband who wasn’t West Indian too.

It was so natural to my surroundings and to where I came from that I just. My life was that you know, it was this weird blend of America in certain pockets, but like hardo bread when I walked in the house. So all my other friends had like wonder bread that was sliced. I think that’s cool, but you’ve never had hardo bread toasted with some butter on it and some tea? It will change your life. That was the cool things about being in the houseand having a different culture point than others. And actually, it’s interesting, cuz I do find in the UK, whether that thing that you’re talking about having a country to tie it back to whether you’ve been to Nigeria or to Jamaica or to wherever your people come from, there is an insane amount of culture and pride mm-hmm for these countries that some know better than others and I think that’s really cool.

Nichole
Yeah. And a solidarity there too.
Shani
Yeah, the solidarity is really cool. Yeah.
Nichole
Yeah. Do you feel that having that strong tie to your West Indian culture also was one of the first ways in which you grew into this love affair with music?
Shani
Absolutely. My father and his friends used to get to, uh, he had this one friend. Uncle Mitra is his best friend, and they used to get together every week and play all the new records and us kids would be around.

And, the way they would analyze every song. And there was always rum that went with it, but, you know, the way they would analyze every song and go through it all and re-listen to songs and have these big debates about music and absolutely was my first, you know, music was such a huge, huge part of growing up. Huge.

And it was never American music. I always have this joke. I was away at school. I went to Temple and we were with friends and I heard a song and I was like, who is that? And they’re like Luther Vandross. And I’m like, oh, he covered a Beres Hammond song. This song was originally sung by a Jamaican singer and Jamaicans, if you know, anything are known for like their covers of US songs.

But it was so prevalent in my house. It wasn’t until like I got to university that I realized. Oh shit. These aren’t their songs. Oh no. My friends were like, no, that’s Luther Vandross’s song. Are you crazy? And I’m like, oh, have you heard the Beres Hammond version? It’s really good.

It was, it was interesting. And I had many people along the way from when I was about 18 and 19 up that started teaching me more about old school RnB and like Gamble & Huff and what they meant with, the sound of Philadelphia and getting to go back and hear the OJs and early Jackson 5 songs that I didn’t know, like it’s funny to think about now, but there are still moments. I have one of my close friends, Ryan Press, who’s at Warner Chappell also. And his father is in The Temptations.

Nichole
Oh really?
Shani
And it’s like a constant. Yeah, it’s funny. And when he plays me Temptations music and just all the stuff that he, “you don’t know what this is, do you?” And I’m like, “yes, I do. Now, what is it?” Like, um, go on, tell me, cause it’s still in education, you know, it’s West Indian people and I would go to Trinidad or you’ll be in, in Jamaica. Back then they listen to pop music.

It wasn’t really rap or RnB in that way. It was like kind of more pop music I remember hearing. Mm-hmm so yeah, it took a while and I’m still learning constantly learning. You know when there’s a sample sometimes in like rap songs, you’ll hear samples used, even in dance music across the board really. I can never identify a sample. I’m like, um, uh, what is that? And people will be like, how do you not know that song? Cause in my house, we were listening to Dennis Brown and Sparrow and Bob Marley and David Rudder, and not this, we weren’t listening to this. I can assure you.

Nichole
So, when did you decide that you wanted to get into A&R just from loving music?
Shani
I never wanted to get A&R. A&R was like the biggest mistake that worked out really, because I started with telling you, God takes care of children and fools.

When you have West Indian parents. One of the things that happens is that your parents are so honest with you to a point where you’re just like, “Really though?” And so, I was super fascinated with music and kinda getting to that age where I was discovering things on my own. Like the first thing that I remember being super young and my mother bought me like a Salt-n-Pepa.

Um, do you remember Salt-n-Pepa? She bought me like the cassette tape and I remember her and my dad having this conversation that it was way too mature for me, but I was obsessed with them. And my best friend, Shauna, that we grew up together was also obsessed. And we went through different people that we were obsessed with and in our obsession, we were always looking things up and wanting to know who did this and who was this person.

Somewhere in there. Maybe I thought I was gonna be an artist, but I am tone-deaf. I can’t hold a single note. My mother would tell me that all the time I wanted to take piano lessons. The teacher didn’t think I even had enough rhythm to stay on beat. Like I remember my mother going, like, I dunno if this is like your path.

Like I dunno. And, I have an older cousin, her name is Roni and she worked at Vibe Magazine. Mm-hmm and I remember her coming back one day, she had like an internship and she came back and just started telling me, you know, you could work in music business. Oh, what’s that? Um, I was probably 11 or 12, maybe 12.

And she started telling me about A&R people and publicity people and just all these cool people that she was meeting at Vibe. And I was always more fascinated by the people behind the scenes than the actual artists unless it was like Jodeci, cuz I wanted to marry Devonte. So fun fact.

Nichole
No, we would’ve been sister-wives.
Shani
I think that worked out for the best though. Being honest. Yeah, I think so. But um, unless he’s still out there and I don’t know anyway, um, I think that she would always tell me like these different stories and I was so fascinated and eventually was very resolved that that was what I wanted to do, but I never wanted to do A&R, I thought it was for men. Mm-hmm and that it wasn’t my thing.

And I wanted to do maybe publicity and marketing, cuz I loved to write. Thought maybe I was gonna be an author, you know, when you’re just like thinking about a lot of things, I was like, I’ll be an author, but then I’ll also do publicity in marketing. That felt like a good plan when you’re 15 or 16.

And it just turns out that my first job, proper job in this business was at Warner Chappell being an assistant to a guy named Chris Hicks, who was an A&R person. And I took the job thinking, at least I’m in. I’ll get out of that. I don’t wanna do that, but at least I’m in, and then I’ll be able to like network while I’m in Warner Music Group.

Mm-hmm and that obviously went wrong. Somehow I’m still here. I never got that moment to network. So maybe I’ll try tomorrow. But he was amazing in so many ways. Like that was his first real job. I don’t think that he had an idea of what an assistant should be doing. It was me and him and just the two of us.

He gave me an insane amount of latitude to figure it out. And he was tough, but he was a teacher when he needed to be. And then like super tough and like, no, no, no, I’m not here to babysit. Go figure it out. And I respect that so much. And I’m so grateful because I was tons of moments as a woman, like, oh my God, I’m afraid to walk into the studio.

What am I gonna do? Figure it out, and come back to me when it’s done. And I think that’s obviously exactly the kind of tone and spirit that you have to have doing A&R and he toughened me up. For better or for worse. I’m tough now, sort of.

Nichole
Well, do you think that you needed that because it is such a male-dominated role?
Shani
Hundred percent, hundred percent. West Indian parents, you shelter your girls, you kinda let your boys have a lot more freedom. I was super sheltered. I had two parents who mademy life very comfortable and amazing. And the music business is the opposite of that. It’s all about being uncomfortable. It’s all about finding confidence in yourself when other people may not have it in you and having the wherewithal and the passion to go and forge new roads and find artists that other people think are maybe terrible but you believe in.

And so Chris was very resolved in I think teaching me those things, and it was tough. There were moments where I would like wanna bitch and whine and he would go, no, no, no, I’m not listening to this. The famous line he would always say to me is, “Are you more afraid of them or of me? Are you afraid of some people you don’t know or are you afraid of coming back and telling me what you didn’t do?” Like, oh, that’s a good point. I’ll be back. I don’t want you cursing me out and I don’t care if they do so I’ll be back, but it was exactly what I needed. Mm-hmm and he and I worked together at Warner Chappell and I mean, obviously as his assistant for a long time, but he always gave me enough. I felt like we worked together and I mean that in with the most amount of respect. And then he took me with him when he went to go work for LA Reid at Def Jam and Def Jam was the next level of learning. It’s like, you go through different grades.

If that moment was junior high school, Def Jam was like high school, all the cool kids, all of the like how do I get in and fit in here? LA Reid is a legend and insane at what he has accomplished. And, you know, when you’re between Chris Hicks, who did all the things he did and LA Reid.

And then at the time, DJ Khaled and Lenny S and Kawan Prather like all these insaneBoowas there. We had the most insane A&R team. And I was the girl trying to figure it out, excuse me, while I clumsily sit over here and try to figure it out. And it was hard, but it was incredible.

Absolutely incredible. If you can survive Def Jam, you can do anything. All of those people are now off doing amazing, amazing things. Obviously, DJ Khaled is DJ Khaled and Boo is running shit over at Columbia Records. And KP is in this festival DJ that’s also working with Pharrell and doing all these cool things.

And Lenny S has probably a million followers on Instagram and takes these incredible pictures. And is this huge part of culture and manages DJ Khaled. Everybody’s doing so much cool stuff. It was like the best of class when I was there, at least in my opinion.

Nichole
Did you have any other females that were working in A&R?
Shani
Um, Karen Kwak was a very supportive and also tough person. She was running A&R for LAand doing so much more. Karen did a bit of everything. She was like a boss bitch. And she still is. But at that time, Karen was probably the first significant woman that came into my life from like a work, you know, working for, I didn’t technically I was working for Chris, but she was very dominant.

Mm-hmm in a great way and also tough. You looked at Karen. She was teaching you by sitting down and showing you something or teaching you by just being a trailblazer and setting an example. She was tough. I don’t mean a bitch. Although sometimes that is required of the job.

Right? But I just think that’s an unfair label for women but tough in the sense she could hold her own and she never played that woman card first. She did her shit and she was able to compete, not with the women, but with everybody, which is to me the ultimate salute. I always say, I never wanna be the best woman in the room. I just wanna be the best. And Karen is really an example of that. She was incredible at what she did. And she was a boss.

Nichole
Who are your biggest advocates for you in your career?
Shani
I have so many, I feel like it takes a village to raise a career. I have so many, I was really lucky either. Listen, I’ll say it five more times. God takes care of children and fools. So I haven’t decided which one I am.

I’m probably a bit of both, but I had loads of people that were not afraid to call me out when I was doing stuff wrong. Who were not afraid to champion me and tell me when I was doing stuff right. Who yelled at me, who hugged me, who told me to stop with your fucking tears and get it together. I had a lot of people. I’m super grateful because a lot of people showed me a lot of grace and gave me a lot of time and still do. I’m not here alone.

I’m here with a whole village of people that are rooting for me and checking me even today, like right before this call, somebody called a friend of mine. It’s like a big brother called to tell me who I hadn’t called back and why I was embarrassing him. And I appreciated that. So too many advocates to name.

Nichole
Well, the one thing that I really love just as far as your journey is that you’ve had both mentors and sponsors. Like with Chris and the mentoring and being at Def Jam and really understanding and learning about A&R but also having those sponsors. Even in your current role with Guy telling you that you really should take this role. What I love about sponsors are those are the ones that get you into the door, they create those opportunities. So I’d love for you to share that story.
Shani
Oh my God. I remember the day that Guy called me and said we were looking for an MD in the UK. If anybody knows me, I’m going to insert my opinion. And I was inserting my opinions. And one day he just called me and said to me, “I don’t understand why you haven’t just thrown your own name in the ring.” And I’m like “in the ring for what?” And he is like “for the job.” And I was flabbergasted. I said to myself, Oh, my God, like he’s finally lost it. COVID has made him lose it. It was, we were about a month into COVID and it was around that month. Things started getting tricky. I don’t know if you remember, cuz initially, we thought we may be in the house for two weeks. I think around that month period, maybe by like the first week or two of April, everybody was starting to realize, wait a minute, we might be here for a while.

So we were all getting into that slow resignation of sad, but we feel crazy. Like what is going on in the world. And I thought we lost Guy to that crazy. Yeah. What is he talking about? He sounds insane. And he sat on the phone and went into a speech about telling me that there was two kinds of people in life.

And he described what a leader was and told me that I should do it and I needed to consider it. And I came off the phone with him, like, yeah, he’s cracked. I don’t know what he’s talking about. There’s no way I can do that role. And to his credit. I mean, he saw something that I definitely didn’t see at the time.

And I went through many moments of doubt, many moments, probably still some that happen now, but, you know, I had a lot of doubt. I was like are you okay? I think I definitely asked him that one or two times, but he saw something and he was a major, major champion. And while I was going, well, I can’t do it for this reason.

I can’t do it for that reason. He kept telling me how ridiculous I sounded and how those were exactly the reasons why I had to do it. And those were exactly the reasons why he picked me. I kept highlighting, I can’t do this because that person does this and I’m different. And I think about the, and I just can’t and like, I’m not mature enough.

And don’t, you know, that I still do this and I can’t do that. And he is like, that’s exactly the reason why I think you should do it. And he promised that I would have his full support. Two and a half years after that initial conversation he has made good on everything he promised. He’s been an insane supporter who yells at me when I need to be yelled at. I like that. It feels honest, right? And he’s super supportive and angry with me when I need somebody to be angry with me. I am incredibly grateful to him because I think it’s a really hard thing to be a leader, but also be able to be friendly enough. I don’t wanna be disrespectful and say he feels like my friend, but it’s easy to talk to him and easy to go and say, I have no idea what’s happening right now. What would you do? And he shows me grace, that’s my word, loads of grace, and gives advice and helps me troubleshoot when I need to.

Nichole
Yeah. I love that. And the fact that he believed in you more than you believed in yourself at the time.
Shani
I mean.
Nichole
And continues to push you. So really is such a great example of a sponsor.
Shani
He is an incredible, incredible sponsor. Yeah. So I hope he doesn’t hear this it’s gonna go right to his head.
Nichole
Hey Guy!
Shani
Right to his head.
Nichole
So what do you feel are some of the biggest challenges you’ve been facing in your role as not only the MD of Warner Chappell but also as International Head of A&R at Warner?
Shani
I mean, well, the first major challenge was COVID, right? I think that was a major challenge. I also think when you’re a woman and you are then a woman of color that plays a huge role into things. Moving to the UK, there were moments where I think even Black people were confused by my role and that’s likely because they’d never really seen it done by a Black woman.

Right, I think of it as a pro and a con. I think when you grow up Black when you grow up any when you know anybody of color and the children of immigrants, you’re always told, “do better, work harder, be faster, be quicker, be the smartest in the room.”

So you already have lived your life with that mentality. It extends into work where you understand it. The UK is a lot different than the US. I got to grow up and have Black doctors and Black teachers and parents who gave me a very intentional childhood where they understood as a Black child in America, how to instill that confidence with Black excellence around you. I don’t think that previously that has been happening in the UK. I think it’s starting to change now and starting to happen, but we’re in that moment of the change. I think it’s a bit behind America in that sense.

So that’s a challenge. There are not nice things that come with being the first. But then there are some amazing things that do come with it. And some of it is being able to have a seat at the table where you can share your insight and share your experiences and be a part of change in real-time.

For me, I get to run the UK office and do some things that I would wanna see at a company that I worked at before I had this position. And that’s awesome. I think I’ve learned to go like, Yeah, I’m different from my counterparts, but I’m gonna lean into that versus being scared of that. I have, I hope a very different rapport than other people with my team.

I’m probably too honest at moments., you know. I will tell everyone, I’m terrified to be up here. I hate public speaking, but I like to tell the truth for better or for worse. And I just have learned to not try to show up as anyone else just be myself, because people respect that far more than you being, who you think they wanna see.

So I just try to be myself to counteract all the challenges and always show up that way. And I don’t know, cross my fingers and know that God takes care of children and fools.

Nichole
So what was the first thing that you did when you came into your role and you said, okay, well, they’re having a completely different experience with me because I am a woman of color here in this role, the first one that they’ve had.

And you knew that it was gonna be a little bit of a shock to the system. How did you go about trying to change the culture there? So it would be more, um, I don’t wanna say accepting, but to where it wasn’t such a culture shock for them having you having there?

Shani
I started the role October of 2020. I moved here January ‘21. And we were in a lockdown. I don’t know how to answer that question. Really. I think that the first thing that you do when you are moving to another country to do a role that you’ve never done is you meet people and you listen. And that’s what I tried to do.

That was one of the only things I could do. I couldn’t meet the team in person. We were in a lockdown. I was able to do some limited meetings, but not a lot, obviously. I listened, I tried to listen and I tried to learn. That was the only thing that I really could do. I met with a lot of people and I just, I was terrified, oh my God, I was terrified, but I just kept reminding myself.

I had to show up as myself at all times. So the only culture that I was trying to bring was one of extreme openness and being candid with each other because that’s the only way I think you can be great is when you can be really open and direct. And I just tried to create an environment where people knew that they could be just as open and direct with me as I was being with them. But I try to listen a lot and I still do try to listen a lot. I think when you start getting to certain places as a leader, it’s far less about what you do and the, I don’t know if legacy is the right word, but you know, you’re judged not just on your own merit, but on merits of your team.

So a lot of it is managing that to make sure that they have all the resources and all of the things that they need to be happy and well adjusted mm-hmm that they can knock it out the park. So I listen, I try to, I hope I listen. That’s the culture that I wanna have.

I think the UK is incredibly, I can never say this word. The UK can be incredibly hierarchical. Yeah. Hierarchical. Let’s go with that. Um, but it’s probably much more so than in the US. I think. It’s not what I came from. So I think that it was always, for me, it’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I might be the MD, but tell me what’s going on. Tell me how I can help. So I think trying to make sure that everyone knows that that’s not my brand, my brand is not about that at all.

Nichole
So what do you think are some of the key differences between music in the US, Europe, and the Caribbean?
Shani
Hmm, I’ll start with the US versus everywhere. How about that? I feel like the US versus everywhere. I think, again, it goes back to that thing of American culture is about being American and not necessarily, you know, you retain bits and pieces, but I think there’s an American thing that is far more shared than say in the UK as an example.

Right. And I think that that American thing is reflective in the music. It is, think a bit less inclusive, although that’s changing, I look at a song like Peru, an Afrobeat song, and Essence also an Afrobeat song that both had success in the US this past year and last year.

But that’s the first time that I think that’s happened significantly in modern youth culture and music. But that’s been happening for years in the UK and around Europe.

So I look at the UK and I see a music culture that is really inclusive and celebrates all the different, you know, whether it’s reggae and ska to like Afrobeat and how all of that has kind of come into the UK and you hear it. And punk songs, it’ll give you elements of ska music. And then RnB records here, they may have Afro-swing moments and in hip-hop music, you’re hearing moments of Afrobeat and moments of Caribbean music.

It’s all very much a melting pot in that way. And I don’t think that that is a consistent thread in America. I think that there are moments that it happens, but it feels more consistent here just in the time that I’ve been here, at least. And the US is a big enough country that it can survive almost on its own.

So you can have a very mediocre artist in the UK. And when I say mediocre, I’m not even talking in terms of talent, but I’m talking in terms of how far they can go in the chart. Say you have like an artist that may not chart that much and may not be on the radio and that you may not be familiar with, but there’s enough people in the US that that artist can make a very healthy living and sustain himself in their art.

Whereas in the UK we’re dealing with a smaller country and countries in Europe and other places, it’s not necessarily the same. So the US gets to kind of thrive without having to think about the world where the world to thrive in the past, I feel like it’s always had to think about the US at some point, and now that’s starting to change too, which is really cool.

I love watching how streaming has made the world open up in a way that you don’t have to just think about how do I have success in America to be a big artist. You don’t just need America anymore. And I think that’s amazing.

Nichole
Well, like to your point, I didn’t even know anything about Afrobeats until I lived in London and was like, wait I love Afrobeats. I was like, oh, but I do enjoy that you have certain companies that are trying to make it more accessible. During COVID, I got a Peloton and they have an instructor, Tunde, and she would do Afrobeat rides. Cool. Hear all of this. And then of course they have the London instructors. And so Hannah would do Afrobeats and Caribbean, um, her carnival ride. So you got to have that exposure.
Shani
That’s so cool. I didn’t know that.
Nichole
Yeah. And I liked it because it was one of those where most of the, at that time you had heavily American riders because that’s where it started. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was giving access to that music outside of that. One of the other things that I felt was more jarring to me was when I moved to Paris.

It was my first time ever living outside the states. Mm-hmm and I was just at the grocery store. I was at Monoprix picking up groceries and I started to tune into the music that was coming over the speakers mm-hmm and it was Kanye, but it was an explicit version. I was like, “Wait!” They’re saying all the curse words and yeah that was when I was like, is America the only one that does the parental advisories and even in the UK, you don’t really hear the clean versions.

That is such a US thing from, what was it like 1985? I know I’m dating myself, but I remember Tipper Gore. And the whole Tipper Gore and Frank Zappa hearing where Tipper Gore had bought a cassette, a Prince cassette for her daughter. And that was when Purple Rain was out and she’d heard the song Darling Nikki, and you know what that song is.

And for me on the playground, it was, oh, this is your song. And I was like, it sure is. I didn’t know what masturbation meant. I was like, I love it. You know, I love Prince. And she heard that song. And then it was forming this council and making a federal case out of it to where now you had the parental advisories of what is acceptable.

Shani
I thought that that happened in the nineties, you know, I guess that’s when I remember it. I remember, you know, I don’t, I remember being…
Nichole
Delores Tucker?
Shani
Was that? Yes. That’s. Okay.
Nichole
Tupac, yes. So they have different iterations, but it first started with Tipper Gore. but really it was about rock. They called it “rock porn.” And so it was interesting in that she said, when she grew up, it was listening to the sweet things like Twist and Shout and you know that song is very sexual. Yeah. So. It’s based upon kind of our own lens, but there are so many trends of even you think about what Elvis when he was using his hips and they thought that was too sexual.
Shani
That was very provocative.
Nichole
Yes. And so having that and them saying, okay, there’s this whole big parental advisory. And then moving in more to the rap stuff, I think with NWA, Tupac, and all of that, looking at more of the lyrics there. And then even now here in Atlanta with the Fulton County DA using the lyrics of rap songs, to indict rappers here on what they’ve said that they’re going to do or what they say they do in these songs. So it’s like, what is artistic expression, and what is kind of telling on yourself?
Shani
I am wildly against censorship, against using lyrics. This is art and you have to give people room. I think music gets such a bad rap about how it impacts and affects. I have so many thoughts here. It almost gets muddled in my head, but I just, I hate that. I think, you know, people love to blame. This is happening because of rap music and know this is happening because of poverty and the poverty that was created, not by us, but it was created.

And given to Black people and people of color and the music is a reflection of what’s happening, not the music. Do you understand? It’s not the other way around. I hate it. I’m gonna start saying like really problematic, controversial things. I just, I don’t believe in that. It’s unfair. It’s really unfair. And even speaking of what’s going on in Atlanta with using rap lyrics, I was, I was so annoyed when I heard that. I think it’s absolutely wrong.

Nichole
Well, keeping on our controversial topic. What did you think about the whole FN Meka thing? The virtual rapper that Capital Records had signed and then had to drop because of digital blackface? What’d you think about that?
Shani
Well, you know what? I don’t know the whole story. Like I saw what transpired on Instagram. I didn’t do a lot of digging, so I’m gonna just say what I heard. What I heard was that it was created by one or two people, but none of those people reflected the artist. So there were no people of color in that room that helped to create that if I understand correctly? Do you know?
Nichole
Yeah. So allegedly, mm-hmm the president or the owner of Factory New where the project came out of mm-hmm he said that it was a very diverse team that came up with this rapper.

He was the only white person in the room. Oh. Um, but I think the thing was is that you have this new sort of artifice that you’re using. And it was looking at you’ve got this avatar of what this person is, and because it’s almost a hybrid because you have a real person that’s rapping, but you’re using artificial intelligence.

Right. My question was, did you not do focus groups or anything? Just even within the company. This would’ve been a great use of employee resource groups beforehand. It’s like, how about getting some feedback on that? Because yeah your team could have been Black behind the scenes, but you’ve got this avatar that is saying things and maybe using more stereotypes. And is it reinforcing something negative versus really elevating culture?

Shani
Artificial intelligence scares me because I don’t fully understand where it comes from. So like you constantly hear about different moments when, like, if you type certain things into Google, this comes back.

There’s been so many stories of artificial intelligence gone wrong. So I think when you start applying it to creative things like music, to art it’s gonna be a catastrophe. It’s going to not always give you the right result back and it’s not going to read the room, which in 2022, you have to know how to read the room.

And I think that that’s an example of not reading the room. Coming up with an artist that perpetuates another stereotype of Black people and Black women is why artificial intelligence is a problem. Cause then you’re doing that in 2022, what the hell? Do you understand what I mean? So for me, I’m not like the biggest without knowing the whole story my gut reaction is like artificial intelligence, creating a rap avatar is a recipe for disaster. Just like don’t it.

Nichole
Yeah, well, artificial intelligence is always so hard because it has to be programmed by somebody. Exactly. So exactly that you’re programming your biases into this AI interface. So I look at that as when they try to do hiring decisions or they’re trying to make things more equitable. But as you said, we’ve seen so many examples of where artificial intelligence has actually perpetuated more discrimination and oppression, then it’s helping.
Shani
Hundred percent. Yeah. Hundred percent. I did see that when I saw the avatar, I was like, oh, somebody’s gonna get in trouble. This doesn’t look right.
Nichole
But even with music, I feel like, with artists, the whole reason, the whole culture behind it is the soul of telling a story. And when you’re looking at AI, it seems very sterile. It’s like, how are you really telling that story exactly from their particular lived experience or just from, um, things that have come up, and even as they evolve, you think about, as you evolve as an artist and telling a story a certain way, how can you do that with artificial intelligence?
Shani
You can’t mm-hmm you can’t cause it’s not going to be authentic, right? I don’t know. Somebody will prove me wrong. Mm-hmm and in like two weeks, there’ll be a new avatar artist that has the biggest record in the world that everyone loves their story, I guess. But right now I just, yeah, I think it’s too weird. It doesn’t make sense yet. Mm-hmm um, and you’re absolutely right. Artificial intelligence still has to be managed by people and people are problematic. So, you know, when you start putting that recipe, it just doesn’t, it doesn’t work yet. No. Yeah. I, maybe we should have DEI people doing programming, the artists and artificial intelligence.
Nichole
Oh, I dunno about that, but, well speaking of DEI, what do you think are the biggest DEI challenges in the music industry right now?
Shani
I think following George Floyd and there was this like call to change call to we’re gonna figure this out, but I don’t quite think it happens that way. I think DEI is all about behavior and changing learned behavior. And I think that’s a really hard thing to do that doesn’t happen in six months or a year or even a year and a half.

So, one of the challenges is really about how do you adjust behavior? How do you change people’s perspective? I don’t think that it’s fair to get into values when you’re at work. Right. I think it’s much more fair to talk about behaviors that will, and won’t be accepted when you try to change values.

I just think you’re always gonna be behind the eight ball on that. It doesn’t make sense to me, but I think that it’s fair to expect certain behaviors from people that you work with. And that’s a hard thing to change. You’re trying to change a perspective and behavior that some people have had for years and years and years.

And you’re the expert. That’s a challenge. I still wonder how you do that. How does that happen?

Nichole
Well, I think one of the things is looking at understanding the why behind that. So as we have conversations and as you said, this learned behavior, it’s maybe not something that we believe deep down in our heart, this is something we’ve always been told and it’s never been challenged.

So how do we embrace that critical challenge to say? Hmm. Okay. Why do you feel this way? Or why is this problematic? An example would be if we’re thinking music, the word “spaz”. Recently with Lizzo and Beyonce and their songs. I didn’t know that that was a problematic term.

Shani
Me neither.
Nichole
Because that’s not our background, you know, we’re not part of that community. So I think as long as you’re open to saying, oh, okay, well, “why is this an issue?” I always talk about the four different types of oppression with structural, how the branding that we see, what we’ve seen on TV, even cartoons, Speedy Gonzales, Pepe Le Pew, the Simpsons, all of these different things.

You have institutional, um, individual, and you’re looking at these different things. You’re like, okay. So I have all of these pieces of information that come in and I’m operating unconsciously and it’s like, well, maybe I need to take a step and say, am I looking at this right?

Or I have a different point of view, let’s talk about it. But a lot of times I feel like we get into performative activism. Yeah. Or it’s say we wanna do the right thing, but then people also feel so overwhelmed because they don’t wanna be canceled. They’re like, I can’t keep up with all the changing terms.

And then it turns into the, as I like to call it the Oppression Olympics, where everybody is like, my marginalization is the best. And you’re just like, well, how can we all coexist and not feel so stressed out about it? And that’s really where you have that conversation. I think a good conversation to where you’re just talking and understanding, making space for other people.

I talk about that all the time, holding space for someone else. Yeah. You don’t have to agree, but at least hold space for them.

Shani
Yeah. I think you’re absolutely right. I think the part where I get disappointed, is the music business needs to be reflective of the music that we’re putting out mm-hmm and youth culture, you know, today’s music I think it’s a far more smooth word to use than like urban music and pop music. Like, I don’t know that those terms are quite right anymore.

I feel like we’re in a moment of youth culture and that’s being reflected through white artists, Black artists, Asian artists, like more artists and more diversity amongst these artists than we’ve ever seen. Mm-hmm and I’m not proud that a lot of our companies don’t look like the music that we’re putting out.

I’m not proud of that. I think that’s a problem for me. Like, I always wanna make sure that if we have a songwriter, a producer, an artist that’s walking through this building, we look like them. Right. I’m not saying everybody needs to look like them, but we look as diverse as the roster that we have.

And we don’t right now. I don’t think any company in music at the moment is that, but you must ask why right? Is that what is? To start with why?

Nichole
You start with why. And you do want whatever you’re doing to be reflective in which the culture or the society in which you’re operating. So…
Shani
Absolutely. I love that. It’s a conversation though, right? I love that we’re getting uncomfortable with each other. I love that people are changing their minds about how to hire, where to recruit, and what to do next. I love that. And I think things are changing. You know, things are changing.

I can look around and see a lot more changes even within Warner Music Group than before we were actively talking about it with each other and collaborating on how to make it better. But I’m just impatient. You know, music people. We want it fast. We want it right now. What are you doing right now?

Nichole
So what would you suggest, what are some of the tips that you would you’d like to see in order to make these changes happen faster?
Shani
I don’t know that they’re not happening. The things that I’m saying are happening. I’m just, you know, I’m one to complain.

That’s all, but it’s happening. It is happening. And of course, when you are a person of color and we’ve all come through this business, having our own experiences, you obviously, we wanna, now we want it right now, but it takes, it takes time to change the behaviors to find out the whys that takes time.

And I think we’re all in it for the long haul. Right. It’s not bad to wanna know, you know, you get to be the inpatient person in the room, pushing it along, like, come on, let’s go. Now let’s jump on right now. But I think it is happening and I’m not saying that everything is perfect. That’s not what I mean.

I just feel like the things that I would suggest are already happening. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It’s great to be able to have a conversation with HR people, our people team here, and they’re thinking about it and addressing it before you even are saying it. Right. So it’s changing.

I worked at Warner many years ago when I first started and it wasn’t the Warner that we are today. So growth is good and it’s happening.

Nichole
And I think sometimes you just have to look at what’s going on around you and even the Women of Warner, ERG when Sarah Everard was kidnapped and murdered last year.

Yeah. 2021, the Women of Warner ERG really pushed for policy change to be able to reimburse expenses related to safe travel home from when they were working late at night at events because Sarah was walking home from a friend’s house and, was stopped by a metropolitan police officer.

So of course, you know, you’re not gonna think anything’s wrong. Yeah. But looking at that tragic event, was really the impetus to make some change right. In your industry with being safe at night. So that’s a good thing. Absolutely. And then I always tell people, why don’t you go back and watch one of your favorite TV series from years ago and see how it sits with you right now?

Because there are things that I used to love. And now that I watched them, I was like, oh, this is problematic. Yeah, but that was a reflection of the time.

Shani
Absolutely. I grew up in New York during what I call the golden era of hip hop, Biggie, and Jay-Z, and I go back with certain artists that I listened to back then, and I’m like, oh wow. Yes, can’t see that one at work. Can’t play that one at the summer party anymore. You know everything is very, very sanitized, which I think it will level out. It will get stable, but we’re all learning. I’m, you know, learning every single day what certain things mean. I had the funniest conversation with a friend of mine’s daughter who was explaining a boy who she liked, but he’s dating a girl who identifies as a boy.

So now he identifies as queer and the way she explained it to me and the grace that she, at 11 years old, she was so articulate about it. By the end of the conversation, I was too embarrassed to tell her I did not follow. I don’t follow this conversation. Not because I don’t want to, but you’ve used so many new terms and new phrases that I’m going, wow, you just got it.

You’re gonna thrive in this world. Do you wanna come and be my coach once a week and teach me? Cause it is hard to keep up. Right? So we need to be patient with each other while we’re all learning. Yeah. All of the newness.

Nichole
And I think that is the perfect thing. And as kids, I mean, they don’t have to unlearn, learned behaviors. They’re learning these things and I tell people DEI is constant learning and there’s no, that’s just right about it. But I think if you’re open, then that’s always the key thing.

So if you could go back and tell your 18-year-old self one thing, what would it be?

Shani
Chill. Relax. That would be what I would tell. Chill. Why are you always stressed out and anxious? It’s gonna happen? I still am the same person though. So I would’ve to come back and I mean, I need my 18-year-old self to tell me that now still. But I think at, 18, I was so in a rush, I was so ready to be an adult and to have a career and to do all these things.

And now, quite frankly, I miss summer vacation. I miss two months off and like my parents paying my bills and I miss that the hardest thing in life was calling them to say how much I spent on the credit card before the credit card bill came. So at 18 I would be like, chill. It doesn’t always stay this carefree.

Nichole
So now that you’ve achieved all these things, do you feel successful?
Shani
I think it’s a mix. There are some days and I’m like, yeah, girl, you got this. And other days are just like, oh my God, we will try again tomorrow. So I think it’s a mix. I’m proud of myself. I’m proud that I stuck it out. Moving to the UK to do this job during a lockdown was not easy, going through that whole visa process in the US during COVID not easy but I’m proud that I’m here and I’m proud that I get to do this job but I don’t know. I’m ambitious and I want more.

And more and more. I feel proud of myself at certain moments. And then at certain moments, I’m like, it’s not enough. You’re not working hard enough, you know, I guess we’re all our own worst critics, but I remember somebody put this, it might have been Kamala, but I feel successful in the sense that I get to do this job as myself.

Being myself, being honest about who I am, and hopefully holding the door open for other, young, black women, young women, women of color, people who are maybe not the norm, I guess if we’re playing the Marginalize Olympics, is that what you called it?

Nichole
The Oppression Olympics. Yeah.
Shani
The Oppression Olympics, everybody who’s in those Olympics, I guess. You know, those are the moments where I feel proud. It hasn’t been easy, but I haven’t given up yet. Although I do give up maybe 30 times a day, but only quietly to myself. And then I get back into it.
Nichole
What do you do for self-care? How do you balance being this boss with also pouring back into yourself so you can continue to show up?
Shani
Um, I don’t know that I have that balance quite right. I shop a lot and I buy myself nice things, which is not necessarily the right balance because that balance will have you living out on the street. I don’t know, like, one of the things that is far healthier in the UK is just their approach to the work-life balance and taking holidays and the expectation to do so. You’re, nobody’s hero. Nobody’s looking at you like girl, you killing it. You didn’t even take a vacation, which is kind of the attitude in America, but here it’s like, Ooh, you didn’t take a vacation.

What’s wrong with you. Right. So I do try to balance. I’m not saying I’m good at it yet. Uh, but I don’t really know what I do. I shop, I love to read mm-hmm and I spend a lot of time talking on the phone to my friends in the US. Because I have really bad FOMO (fear of missing out) and I don’t wanna miss anything. So, you know, that’s probably it go to dinners with friends when I have time, but I also think I love what I do.

Like I love it. And I’m so grateful. I’m so like, I think about that all the time. And that’s why I always say God takes care of children and fools because I grew up with, I’m sure a lot of us who you, you know, you growing up with your friends and everyone is telling you, like, I’m gonna be this when I grow up and I’m gonna be that, and I’m gonna be this.

And I’m doing exactly what I wanted to do. And I’m working in my Plan A and there are moments where I’m frustrated, but more often than not, I am like this doesn’t feel like work at all. I cannot believe somebody’s paying me to do this. I don’t know, that’s the hard part, I’m in my Plan A, I’m grateful. I’m fucking happy. Like really happy. It’s hard to stop. It’s hard to stop. So I’m working on it. I’m working on it. Then you moved, you don’t live here anymore. We go to see bad plays.

Nichole
Well, when I’m back, we’ll go find another bad play.
Shani
Oh my God. I’ve got like four right now that we can go into. So let’s get our tickets and let’s go right up front. So we can’t even leave the bad play and eat our Madeleines. Exactly, exactly. And eat our Madeline. That’s all that really matters.
Nichole
This has been a really great discussion. I think you provided such great insight into things.I really, really enjoyed it. And one last thing is from an A&R perspective. Mm-hmm when artists are looking to get discovered, what do you look for? Cause this question comes up so many times of how do I get discovered, especially since the change with COVID and you couldn’t get out there, you know, how do artists stand out?
Shani
I think that it’s a right now like you’re in a moment when I was coming up through this business in the early two thousands, what people looked for was. It was all about the labels and like telling you what to do. Whereas now labels and publishers are scouting from like the internet and social media and, you know, DSPs and things that are going viral.

So you can blaze your own path in a much different way than you did before. You can sit down with your friends and record a song in your bedroom that becomes like the biggest thing on TikTok. And we will find you. And that is meant to sound as creepy as you heard it. Like we will find you, you know, um, and also social media gives an incredible opportunity.

Whether it’s Instagram or Twitter, I’m not saying you’re always gonna be recognized and heard, but to interact with people, do your research, go find some of your favorite, A&R people at these labels, go follow them on Instagram, DM them, leave comments under their photos. It happens to me a lot. I do respond. I mean, it, it can get intense, but I do try to listen to stuff. I do try to respond. I have friends that send me, like, have you seen this? Have you seen this artist? Did you listen to this song? And we reach out. So I don’t know. I hope that helps. I’m not trying to make it sound overly easy, but I don’t think it’s as difficult as it used to be.

We are looking for you. We are, we are looking for the next big thing. We are looking for artists that feel different and special and distinct and unique. Like we all want that. And we’re also looking for hit songs. Sometimes the two go together and sometimes they don’t in the beginning, but like, we want it all.

We’re here. We’re looking for it.

Nichole
One of the things you also told me last year was that the artist also doesn’t have to have tons of followers in order to yeah, no, be discovered, you know, as long as the work is good, then, like you said, you’ll find them.
Shani
Um, yeah. We will find them. So, I mean, sometimes having more followers, it’s like naturally how I think Insta, how to metric with TikTok. Sometimes it’s easier to find, but I’ve picked up things that I’ve found on Instagram that had very few followers, but I just liked it and you get in touch and you just try to figure it out. So, yeah.
Nichole
Well, thank you so much, Shani.
Shani
I’m so proud of you. And I think that this is so in, so I was gonna say dope, but then I stopped myself to sound more intelligent and tripped myself up. You see what I really, I think that you’re doing is incredible. It really is. And congratulations.
Nichole
Well, thank you. And thank you so much for being a guest.
Shani
I’d also like to highlight, you can do this anywhere so you can move back to the UK and do it.
Nichole
Yes. Well, I will be there. So get my room ready.
Shani
I will. Done.
Nichole
So we can hang out and go out to tea.
Shani
Perfect.
Nichole
Well, thank you again, Shani, for all of your feedback and this great conversation, and for the listeners out there thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, then give it a five-star rating. If you didn’t then just go ahead and close out. Don’t touch anything, just leave. Um, and we’ll see you on the next episode.
End of episode.

 

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